Curse

Konig Des Todes · Jul 18, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Arachnia

Now, we all know that there is no in game direct reference to Arachnia, and that Arachnia, an ancient, now-dead spider-god, is only truly found in the .dat file. However, I am bringing up my thoughts on this spider-god that came to me while exploring the Realm of Torment for known and unknown landmarks that are mentioned on the official wiki.

Arachnia and the Realm of Torment “Landmarks.”

The first mention of Arachnia would be the landmarks that are not all completely found (I have been looking for them all, at this point in time; have yet to find seven of twenty-three). The landmarks that relate to Arachnia are: Arachnia Plateau, Harvestman's Lair, The Spider's Heart, and Vale of Shadows. These four areas all have a reference to Arachnia directly, or to spider-like things.

Aside from that, the Gate of Fear and the Domain of Fear are riddled with spider legs and spider webs. Also, in that area, I have noted the most likely places to be the “Vale of Shadows” and the “Harvestman’s Lair.” It seems to me, that when/if Arachnia existed, the now Domain of Fear was its main home/realm.

There is also the description of the Domain of Fear that was found in the gw.dat file:

Quote:

Domain of Fear
Repository of fears of primitive men at the time Abaddon was imprisoned. May indicate the power of a previous, spider or dryder-like race in the world.

Arachnia’s link to Abaddon.

With knowing that Arachnia is a dead god, and that the Domain of Fear is at least based off of it, we can assume some more things about it. In addition to how the Gate/Domain of Fear look, and with the landmarks in there being mostly related to Arachnia (possibly all the Arachnia landmarks are in the Domain of Fear, and I have yet to spot the rest), as I said, it is highly possible that the Domain of Fear was Arachnia’s home. Now, another thing to look at is the Apostate. Everyone who has looked into Abaddon and lore should know the quest reward dialogue from The Apostate. For fast reference, here it is (and I bolded the important part, and underlined the very important part):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostate

Thank you for protecting me. And for your help, I shall now fulfill my end of the bargain.
You may have wondered why I was being chased so vehemently by Abaddon's hunters, and I believe it is as simple as this: I do not believe Abaddon to be an eternal god. There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he may be supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor.
Use this knowledge for your benefit.

Knowing that Abaddon supplanted a god before him, and the Domain of Fear is based on Arachnia, and not to mention that Arachnia is dead, one can assume that Abaddon’s predecessor was Arachnia. Other then the given evidence, it should also be pointed out that the Apostate works in the Gate/Domain of Fear (he can be found in the Gate of Fear, and the quest by him deals within the Domain of Fear). So there are several supports for Arachnia being Abaddon’s predecessor.

Arachnia’s minions/followers.

With the idea that Arachnia was Abaddon’s predecessor – and its main home was the now Domain of Fear – set in place, the next thing to look at is Arachnia’s past minions. I’m sure many will disagree with this part (if not the whole idea in this). I believe that the Terrorweb Dryders, Torment Claw and Grasps of Insanity, possible the Scythes of Chaos and Wrathful Storms, were originally Arachnia’s minions. My main reasoning is that they (excluding Wrathful Storms and Scythes of Chaos) have a spider-like look. Dryders are obvious, and the Claws look like giant spider legs. Grasps have been noted to have bug-like features in the past, and the Wrathful Storms and Scythes of Chaos also have somewhat bug-like features, although those two are the least dominant of the group. My second reasoning is that those groups all appear in the area I’ve noted to most likely be the Harvestman's Lair, which is the “swamp-like area” in the south east corner of the Domain of Fear. If these demons were originally Arachnia’s minions, then started helping Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies, that could explain why the Lightbringer title does not affect those demons (excluding the Torment Claws from the group for this).

I am also leading to believe, although I have absolutely no support for this, that Arachnia is the origin of all hostile bugs in GW. My reasoning for this is that 1) Arachnia is older then the “True Gods,” 2) Arachnia was a spider (and therefore a bug), and 3) Arachnia was evil (evidenced by “The Spider’s Heart” description).

Possible Arachnia concept art. Looks convincing enough to be Arachnia to me at least.

Something that may or may not deal with Arachnia, found in Nightfallen Jahai:

__________________________________________________
None of this can really be proven, or even be truly liable, until ANet confirms or denies that Arachnia was a thrown out concept or not. These are just some thoughts, and a little support, that I had while looking over the Landmarks of the Realm of Torment and the idea of Arachnia from the .dat file.

Fishmonger · Jul 18, 2008, 05:22 AM // 05:22

I love this idea, and agree with it! I don't know if I would go as far as saying it's why bugs are hostile in GW, but everything about the Domain I think is right. Maybe they didn't feel there was enough coverage of Arachnia to include it in the game? who know =S

Gmr Leon · Jul 18, 2008, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I would state my thoughts, if I hadn't already bugged him enough at the very idea of even making a hypothesis on information that cannot be confirmed through in-game evidence.

Kwith · Jul 18, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

An interesting idea.

It wouldn't surprise me if we see Arachnia appear in GW2 somewhere.

I always thought the Terrorwebs were out of place in UW.

pamelf · Jul 18, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Wow, that was really comprehensive and actually convincing. I'm going to have to have another explore around NF now.

distilledwill · Jul 18, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

What about Arachni? Any relation? Maybe some evidence of Arachnia in the Arachni's Haunt Dialogues or the dungeon itself?

Free Runner · Jul 18, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

While i believe Arachnia is simply a thrown out concept like Abaddons Dead Children it is obvious that the area that was to be named Arachnia Plateau is the area at the entrace to the Gate of Secrets. If you exit the gate of Secrets into the Domain of Fear you will notice that behind the entrance is something that looks like an upside down spiders mouth. And the area beyond that looks like the underbelly of a spider.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 18, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

What about Arachni? Any relation? Maybe some evidence of Arachnia in the Arachni's Haunt Dialogues or the dungeon itself?

The main problem with Arachni is that, of what I can find, we don't know where it's name came from. If Arachni is brood/self-named, which I personally doubt, it could be named that because it is the queen of the brood. Arachni could also simply be a title for the current Brood Queen. If it was the Asuras that named Arachni, then it is possible that either Arachni is based off of Arachnia or it is simply meant for "spider" as Arachnida is the "class" that spiders fall under biologically. Arachni would be short for Arachnida, so Arachni's name simply means "spider" how I see it. Same can be said for Arachnia, except that Arachnia is a also used name for a mutant spider in a movie, so the name could be a pop culture reference to that movie, at least originally.

All in all, the only connection I see between Arachnia and Arachni is that Arachni was named dafter Arachnia or that Arachni and Arachnia are just simply spiders. In other words, no direct connection, just a naming usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

While i believe Arachnia is simply a thrown out concept like Abaddons Dead Children it is obvious that the area that was to be named Arachnia Plateau is the area at the entrace to the Gate of Secrets. If you exit the gate of Secrets into the Domain of Fear you will notice that behind the entrance is something that looks like an upside down spiders mouth. And the area beyond that looks like the underbelly of a spider.

First, I would like to say that while exploring the Realm of Torment, I found a few areas that could be possible spots for where "Abaddon's Dead Children" is, unless it has been confirmed that was canceled. As for Arachnia Plateau, the area I see most fit for it would be right behind the entrance to Gate of Secrets, and the Spider's Heart being the blue glow under the ground in front of the entrance to the Gate of Secrets.

So I would agree with you on where the Arachnia Plateau is. (side note: as I have said, I have been looking for all the Landmarks in the Realm of Torment, and I am working on labeling where each is in maps of each area. I still have Nightfallen Jahai to go through, and I need to go back through the Domain of Pain; also, I have about 3 landmarks left to find possible locations of. Once I finish through Nightfallen Jahai and Domain of Pain, I will post the maps up, either in this thread or a new one.)

Free Runner · Jul 18, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Just because the landmarks are visible does not mean the original idea wasnt thrown out. I would think removing some of these landmarks would mean a complete map redesign -and we all know Anet would not want to do that. So while you can see them, Anet removed the stories behind them not expecting people to be diving into the DAT after them. Lupicas Boneyard, Abaddons Dead Children, The Spiders Heart - all places that have had backstories wiped away but are probably still visible as places we've gone "Ahhhh" at. It sounds to me like Arachnia and Abaddons Dead Children originally had more to them - possibly more quests like The Apostrates.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 18, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

The Apostrates.

That right there gave me a good laugh.

The story behind them probably was thrown away, like the Oddbodies quest was for a short time, then later put back in. Like the Oddbodies, Arachnia could easily be placed back in, even in a new place. The landmarks, for all we know, were always just simply a "sight-seeing" implement, and nothing more. Simple stuff put in for Anet to possibly continue on later, like much of the things in Prophecies.

Gmr Leon · Jul 19, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

This may look a bit out of place since I'm pasting it over from the discussion going on in the same thread on GWO, but here it is..

We have several obvious instances of Dhuum's forces being his own.

1. The Underworld. We see a large variety of creatures there, but the main ones causing the trouble are the Terrorweb Dryders who have imprisoned the Reapers.

2. The Dragon Festival. During the first Festival, the Fury, a follower of Dhuum, led an attack on Shing Jea Island. Being a follower should make it obvious that his forces would be those of Dhuum's.

3. The Emissary of Dhuum makes it fairly obvious that the Tortureweb Dryders are a part of Dhuum's main force. In fact, it seems that the Soulweir is a creation of Dhuum's devising.

The part I find interesting is that we never really learn exactly what it is the Soulweir does.

Pondering that aside, it seems fairly obvious from the Keeper of Souls in the Unwanted Guest quest in the Underworld that the Terrorweb/Tortureweb Dryders are a key part, if not the main part, of Dhuum's forces. As it would also seem that they are used to enslave or bind demons to Dhuum's will, as implied by the quest mentioned.

Aside from the Dryders, it seems that creatures like the Fury and the Emissary of Dhuum are simply sentient demons that have sided with Dhuum's cause. The other forces we see may be more demons that have sided with him or are ones that were subjugated by the Fury under Dhuum's command or provided by Abaddon.

Mark Nevermiss · Jul 20, 2008, 09:30 AM // 09:30

This reminds me of the hints at Utopia we find in Asura land such as the Mayan design patterns in Asuran architecture.
It seems once a-net abandons a concept idea they do not completely eradicate all trace of it from the game. Such traces now have no storyline relevance I think.
Perhaps this arachnia was an early concept of Abaddon which A-net later abandoned?

draxynnic · Jul 21, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Interesting...

I wonder what point exactly the Tanarukk became the Destroyers? The old campaign model did involve campaigns being made in parallel - some of these hints may have been put in while ANet was thinking of having the insect-like Destroyers be the minions of a different Big Bad than the ancient dragons for Chapter 4, and then quickly taken out.

It does seem to be a reasonable theory that Arachnia was Abaddon's predecessor, although I'm not sure how to reconcile Abaddon's water focus with Arachnia's spider aspect. That said, Kormir doesn't seem to have picked up the water portfolio, so it could be that that one is one that gets passed around and is currently in Grenth's hands.

The other side of it - the knowledge aspect that seems fundamental to the role - does work quite well, however. Think how many metaphors there are about gaining and controlling knowledge that involve webs...

Konig Des Todes · Jul 21, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Well, for the Water thing, it does seem as though that Grenth picked that up, and "changed" it to his liking (freezing it). It is also possible, with the "job of the god" that passes on, was that Abaddon gained two concepts from the past, as seeing how he had the strength of two gods, I always figured he killed and absorbed the power of two different gods, Arachnia being one of them.

With that said, I think the real thing that Abaddon gained from Arachnia, other then the Realm, was the "evil" aspect. As we all know Abaddon is now evil, and through the description of "The Spider's Heart" Arachnia was evil. So it could have been that he became evil by absorbing Arachnia's power, and gained his other power from his other predecessor.

Of course, that was my thought before reading what you said about webs and knowledge metaphors. And the web/knowledge metaphor link is more likely to be the case with where Abaddon got the knowledge title.

As for the Tannek/Destroyers being originally bug-like. I doubt they were ever considered Arachnia's minions, as Arachnia is long dead, unless the description of the landmarks are wrong.

A thought that recently passed through my head is that it is possible that Dhuum, along with Arachnia, is bug-like, which could contribute to his Grasps of Insanity actually being his and having insectoid looks.

With that concept (and the Ancient Dragons being predecessors of the True Gods), maybe the "god timeline" was something like this:

1. Ancient Dragons (Primordus and co.)
2. Insectoid Gods (Dhuum, Arachnia, and others)
3. "True" Gods (Dwayna, Grenth, Abaddon/Kormir, etc.)

*What I'm hinting at is that the original concept for the Destroyers could have been Dhuum's "new/elite" minions*

But that's all a bit off topic.

shoyon456 · Jul 21, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Okay, so I didn't look that deep into this and knew nothing about this Arachnia.

However, I would say that Arachnia was the trashed beginning concept for Abbadon. There was an older thread I started that talked about how the gods may have come to be, and the idea was proposed that all the gods were sentient races that came to possess great power through entering the Mists.

The idea of Arachnia being Abbadon's predecessor is possible, given with what we have to work with, and the part about the Terrorweb Dryders and Torment Claws (everything else is not spider related) being former servants of Arachnia is even more compelling.

However, going by any of the gods, Dwayna, Grenth, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, even Dhuum or Abbadon, it never refers to them as the "<insert any species> God." Which kind of weakens the argument. They are referred to the Gods of something, be it Truth, Water, Fire, Might, etc...

Also, I believe in the times before Abbadon was exiled and turned against the Gods, there was peacefulness for all intensive purposes. So even if Arachnia was his predecessor, it would have had to have been before recorded history in Tyria, or Arachnia would to have been a peaceful god.

Overall, Im going to have to go with "Trashed Concept For Abbadon" for 1000 Alex!

Konig Des Todes · Jul 21, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

However, I would say that Arachnia was the trashed beginning concept for Abbadon.

I don't think Arachnia was a concept for Abaddon because the few references of Arachnia relates to it already being dead.

Quote:

However, going by any of the gods, Dwayna, Grenth, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, even Dhuum or Abbadon, it never refers to them as the "<insert any species> God." Which kind of weakens the argument. They are referred to the Gods of something, be it Truth, Water, Fire, Might, etc...

Those things you mentioned are not their species, but their attribute, what they control so to speak. It is true that their species is never out right said, although through concepts we can tell that the gods resemble different species, albeit most are not really mentioned in game, and none are proven (Dwayna=Angel, Melandru=Druid/Nature being, Balthazar=Human, Abaddon=Mursaat, Kormir=Human, Grenth=unknown, Lyssa=human?, Menzies=most likely human(oid), Dhuum=Possibly insectoid). Also, just because Arachnia was "the now-dead spider-god" doesn't mean Arachnia was THE spider-god. There could have been more gods that were spiders before the other gods, just like I said above, Dhuum seems to, through observation of his followers, be insectoid as well.

Quote:

Also, I believe in the times before Abbadon was exiled and turned against the Gods, there was peacefulness for all intensive purposes. So even if Arachnia was his predecessor, it would have had to have been before recorded history in Tyria, or Arachnia would to have been a peaceful god.

Seeing how we only know about 1800 years of history, and that Arachnia is from before the True God's reign, it is very likely Arachnia was before recorded history, especially as the only reference to Arachnia is in the Rift.

Free Runner · Jul 21, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

I doubt Arachnia was an early concept of Abaddon since the landmarks were originally found in the Realm of Torment. Like i said before they probably had plans to introduce this but thought "nah" for whatever reason. I would say they could of scrapped it because of GW2 but at that point they had Utopia in mind instead - so perhaps it was lack of time or they simply decided giving away too much would have players pushing them to explore it later.

Also the Tannek were originally Piglike and only became insect like after being adapted to EotN so i doubt they had relation. This picture depicts the merge of the idea before they became what we see them as now:

shoyon456 · Jul 21, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Now, you said you can see Arachnia in the .dat file? I would very much like to see this.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 21, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Free Runner, mind citing where you got "pig-like" for the Tannek?

Also, the description for the picture you posted, from the PCGamer GW issue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Sharp

One of the early designs for the Tannek, a demonic race of creatures in the Eye of the North. They were described as being made of fire and steel with perhaps an insect undertone.

That being the earliest concept that I know of for the Destroyer/Tannek, and with no reference to "pig-like" just simply "insect undertone" I will have to doubt that they were designed to be "pig-like." At least until you site

.

Off-topic: I wish they used that picture you posted for a hard Destroyer boss, like a replacement for the "Disc of Chaos" in Desctruction's Depths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Now, you said you can see Arachnia in the .dat file? I would very much like to see this.

You can find the description and landmark names in the .dat file, at least how I understand, I've never went into the .dat file myself. It is how people got the names of all the landmarks in NF when they have no in game reference. There are probably names and descriptions for more places in non-NF areas, but people haven't looked into the old untouched stuff that much. And sadly, until I can go into the .dat file myself and search, I don't think any more landmark descriptions will be put on wiki, or old landmark names will be found.

komma · Jul 21, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

great insight on arachnia OP'er....this god must somehow be linked to the eotn dungeon aswell.